January 03, 2009

Attention Perry, Nancy, et. al.

Read this.

Posted by Hube at January 3, 2009 05:25 PM | TrackBack

Comments  (We reserve the right to edit and/or delete any comments. If your comment is blocked or won't post, e-mail us and we'll post it for you.)

Okay, Hube...I read it and it was pretty much what I expected it to be. Thing is, I do read other news, blogs, books and form my own opinion from all sources. Do you...on this issue? And yes, I freely admit that some (but not all or even 50%) of my opinion or feelings in the Israeli-Palestinian issue stem from a very personal involvement of many years ago which helped illustrate that in American eyes only...yes, it would seem only...Israel will never be seen to be doing wrong. That is not to say I agree with the terroristic actions of Hamas...far from it. But I do get very sick of hearing how one group firing rockets into Israeli cities are terrorists while the IDF is simply right-minded military action to protect their people. You'll laugh, you will deride but that's nothing but semantics to those who look beyond the political to acknowledge the devastation, starvation, day-to-day treatment of a people without a country to call their own by bullying greed. Even Ron Paul states the obvious...the Palestinian people already live in what amounts to no better than a prison camp. If Canada or Mexico were to do to us what Israel does to the Palestinian people, particularly in Gaza, you think we'd sit still for it? Do you think I...the consummate pacifist..would want us to? Less than a year ago, the last major incursion into Palestinian territory, even Israeli forces openly rebelled, calling it inhumane. Citizens of Israel did likewise. This stikes me as well-timed political move due major governmental change in both this country and Israel. Strike before the US embers of the current administration (and "BFF" of Israel) sputter to ashes for no-one really knows what the next one will bring. But, you are entitled to your own opinion and when you express such on your blog, you surely know there will be dissenters. I hope this dissension doesn't change the enjoyment either of us share in our dialogues, as you mentioned in an earlier post.

Posted by: Nancy Cleveland at January 4, 2009 01:32 PM

Nance: To answer your first query, yes. In fact, some 20-25 yrs. ago I was on the polar opposite side of this debate. I was vehemently on the Palestinian side as an undergrad at UD, and attended numerous pro-Palestinian talks and protests (even once shaking the hand of the then-PLO spokesman, whose name now eludes me). It was only after studying the issue much more in-depth that my views changed drastically -- IOW, to a "WTF was I thinking??" point of view.

Your analogies make no sense. The fact of the matter is that 1) There is no Palestinian "state," 2) They had numerous opportunities to have one and refused, 3) The surrounding ARAB states are, and have been, by far the biggest obstacles to #2, 4) Israel is dealing with the territories because they were captured in a DEFENSIVE WAR in 1967, and 5) merely giving them back w/o any guarantees of recognition and standing down of aggression is beyond reason.

The fact that Israel is a Western-style democracy certainly makes their position much more vulnerable to opposing views, from within and without, as you'd certainly expect. Like, no US soldiers have rebelled against actions in Iraq, for instance? There are no opposing views against the Iraq War here at home? Come on! The sad fact of the matter is, as Israel has relaxed control and liberalized its policies in Gaza and the WB, terrorism increases.

So, I ask you this straightforward: What would YOU have Israel do in this [continuing] situation?

Posted by: Hube at January 4, 2009 01:46 PM

I don't have a hard and fast answer to that, Hube...not other than might is not always right and we need to stop supporting Israel in these attacks. At best, a good start would be ensuring Israel at least abide by International Human Rights and Humanitarian Laws (which they constantly defy). Sure, I could say I'd like to see the residents of Gaza rid themselves of groups such as Hamas but how does that happen when the folk next door treat them as nonentities? Where is the incentive when the kids go hungry and sick, water is scarce and the neighbours will let them buy it at six times the price they, themselves, pay yet nothing to pay for it with?

And YOU didn't answer a question on the other post. Given that you seem to be fully in-step with Israel's "moral right" to attack and invade Gaza...you think it was also morally right of them to attack a civilian ship (IN International waters!)bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza, prepared to take sick and injured out of there?

Posted by: Nancy Cleveland at January 4, 2009 02:55 PM

Sorry Nance. If that's your "good start," there's really nothing left to discuss since we're light years away from even beginning to see eye to eye. And I'm REALLY trying to be polite, mind you.

And please don't get me started on that ridiculous Cynthia McKinney ship. That's Liz Allen territory...

Posted by: Hube at January 4, 2009 04:22 PM

That's too bad, Hube...for some reason I didn't think your politicism over-rode your humanity. And I AM sorry you had to try to hard "to be polite". But...politics will do that, everytime. You are absolutely right...at least on this subject we have nothing left to discuss. I can only assume you turned in your Libertarian card this morning?

Posted by: Nancy Cleveland at January 4, 2009 04:52 PM

Please do not speak to me of "humanity" in this situation, Nancy. I find it quite offensive, not to mention ridiculously preposterous.

And why in the hell would I turn in my libertarian card? Are they supposed to be of like-mind ... like the GOP and Democrats?

Spare me, sister.

Posted by: Hube at January 4, 2009 04:55 PM

Sorry I seem to have struck a nerve. Get off your pompous high-horse, Hube...yours is no more than "opinion", just like the rest of us

Posted by: Nancy Cleveland at January 4, 2009 08:16 PM

I'll get off mine just as soon as you get off yours, Ms. "Humanity."

If you don't like my opinions on this issue -- on MY blog -- then stay the hell away. It's quite easy to do, actually.

Posted by: Hube at January 4, 2009 08:21 PM

Not a question of "like" or "dislike"...I thought differing opinions were acceptable but, okay...it is no problem to stay away so I will honour your polite request.

Posted by: Nancy Cleveland at January 4, 2009 11:19 PM

I'm sorry ... I really never should have let it get this far. It's like I told Steve Newton -- this is like arguing abortion. No one will convince anyone of the rightness of his/her position no matter how hard the attempt. All everyone does is get pissed off.

I think I'll disable comments from such posts in the future.

Posted by: Hube at January 5, 2009 04:03 PM

Hube, Nancy's attitude (and that of those like her) puts me in mind of something that happened 10-15 years ago in California.

A female hiker was killed by a mountain lion while on a designated hiking path. She left behind a couple of kids.

Public safety official killed the big cat -- and when they discovered its cubs took them to a local zoo.

Horrified liberals raised tens of thousands of dollars -- to care for the cubs. Less than $1000 was raised in the fund for the human children of the human victim.

Any guess which fund Nancy and her ilk would have given to? I know which I believe.

Posted by: Rhymes With Right at January 5, 2009 09:53 PM

Nancy, about that ship -- it should have been sunk as a blockade runner. Something perfectly acceptable in international law when it refused to abide by the directives of the naval vessels enforcing the blockade, I might add.

Posted by: Rhymes With Right at January 6, 2009 06:04 AM

I've also read the piece, Hube. I find it to be a scholorly piece with many citations, but extremely one sided, thus credibility suffers badly.

In my view, the Zionist movement started the march of Jews to Israel, making their terrotorial claims based on Biblical grounds, hardly convincing to Arabs residents/occupants (Muslims) in the 19th to 20th centuries. That said, due to Western influence, the Israel State has become a fait accompli. Moderate Arabs, Palestinians included, have come to recognize this, yet the two state solution has yet to be realized, due to extremists on both sides. I have to question once again Israel's unwillingness to sit down with Hamas to begin negotiations without preconditions. Instead, we have the blockade and military activities exercised once again, with the objective of defeating Hamas once and for all. They should realize by now that this will never happen. Meanwhile, we have massive human suffering again, on both sides, much more on the Gazan civilians -- it's tragic! And, we have the extremists on both sides reinvigorated and expanding. This is no solution!!!

All that said, my gut response to the current crisis is exactly what Nancy wrote -- I could not possibly have stated it any better.

Posted by: Perry at January 6, 2009 10:26 AM

Yes Israel violates humanitarian law. Like sends its soldiers into schools and hospitals in order to use civilians as shields. My mistake, it isn't Israel that does it, it's Hamas.

Posted by: soccer dad at January 6, 2009 03:00 PM

Apparently a number of Palestinians in Gaza are aware of who's at fault too.

Posted by: soccer dad at January 6, 2009 03:05 PM

Perry: So, in your view, scholarly (note the spelling, BTW) papers have to be totally even-handed in order to be “credible?” You ought to tell that to my undergraduate (and graduate, for that matter) professors. That’d be news to them. Yours is a ridiculous claim on its face, and is a perfect example of how utterly useless it is to have a discussion with you. When I make a statement, you demand sources. When I provide them, it’s “biased” so it’s “not credible.” That’s total bullsh**.

And your claim that the Zionists made [some of] their land claims on Biblical grounds may be valid; however, as the paper notes, the Jews didn’t “steal” anything from the Arabs. Jews were, and always have been, in Palestine, and the fact that more moved there in the late 1800s means absolutely nothing, especially since they by and large purchased land from [wealthy] Arabs. It’s called “immigration.” Perhaps you consider Mexicans moving here to the US and purchasing land “theft?”

Posted by: Hube at January 6, 2009 03:19 PM